I always loose hands like this, how can I improve?

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Posted: 30-Sep-2009 14:38 by Kakabuku

My opinion:
- under the gun with 10 people you NEVER slowplay a hand like KK! Just put in a healthy raise of at least 3BB.
- 3 people called behind you, there was a raise and a re-raise; at least 1 of them has an A and there might be a random pair out there. A raise is in order but to get rid of your competitors (you wouldn't mind to pick up the pot right here!) a modest 30ct raise makes the pot $2,55 and invites others to call in stead of chasing them away. This is exactly what happens, 1 folds and 3 people call. You don't want to play KK vs 4 people over a substantial pot of now $5,25...
- the flop doesn't show an A (pheww) and gives you again an opportunity to chase everybody away; it's not likely that someone holds a 2 and you can only pray that there is no TT still out there... A $2 bet will not do the trick: it makes the pot $7,25 and offers the others excellent odds to stay in this hand (e.g. if your holding AT!!!)... Since you only have $6,25 behind an all-in is the only bet that makes sense to me.
- you now still have 2 others in the pot ($11,25) and the A shows on the turn with only $4,25 behind. I would be done with the hand: check-fold after a substantial raise... Since the raise is only $0,80 (making the pot $12,05) your call is 'OK'.
- A $13,60 pot and a blank on the river... You can still beat hands like JJ, QQ and with these pot odds ($14,40 after his raise) a call is OK but the damage is probably done....

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Posted: 30-Sep-2009 16:15 by Robbieweeza

Dealing [Ks Kd] to MichiMa
MichiMa calls $0.10

I don't like the flat call, but it's not a bad play utg in 10-seaters.

kiki75011 calls $0.10
leefuller calls $0.10
BagTrax folds
Jay1023 calls $0.10
derekanthony folds
Cotjee1987 raises to $0.40
FedePede raises to $0.70
elzozo folds
ramozak folds
MichiMa raises to $1

Raise much much more. 3 limpers, a raise and a reraise, you should be 4-betting crazy here. Make it like 2.50 or something

kiki75011 calls $1
leefuller folds
Jay1023 calls $1
Cotjee1987 calls $1
FedePede calls $1
Dealing Flop [2h Ts 2d]
MichiMa bets $2

Bet more. With all these people in the pot I'd just chuck it all in here, there's no point in trying to squeeze value here.

kiki75011 folds
Jay1023 folds
Cotjee1987 calls $2
FedePede calls $2
Dealing Turn [Ad]
MichiMa checks

Either you decide to checkfold to a bet or you bet here. By checking you're saying the A has you beat.

Cotjee1987 checks
FedePede bets $0.80
MichiMa calls $0.80

This is a really stupid bet by Fede as you're actually getting close to odds to draw for your 2-outer. Still, this is about the worst way to play this turn.


Bottom line: raise more preflop. KK is only a monster when there hasn't been a flop yet, you want to get as much of your stack in pre as possible, and preferably not get more than 1 or 2 callers for a flop.

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Posted: 30-Sep-2009 16:32 by MichiMa

Right, thanks!

Yeah, I may have to exercise betting a little more...
Often I can't value my hand correctly and therefore do a bet mostly by intuition.

Also I'm still in that situation, that I can't fold a hand, who would beat the board (e.g. Ace-pair) and I therefor run into many traps.

Hope, I learned some more lessons today, especially how to bet. Thanks guys.

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Posted: 30-Sep-2009 16:33 by MeneGeneOkerland

Agree with everything Robbie said everything you did in the hand is just looking for trouble so would def try and follow his advice.

Remember monsters pre AA and KK don't fair so well in multi-way pots

Your other problem in this hand is the guy with A 10 is probably coming with you as he has 2pr with top kicker on the flop (not many fold this at NL10) then hits a better 2pr on turn.

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Posted: 01-Oct-2009 23:01 by Chivalrousgent

"I always loose hands like this, how can I improve?"

Bet Bigger.

The end ...

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Posted: 01-Oct-2009 23:25 by MichiMa

Allright, I will train this.

Allow me to hijack this thread for another topic, cus I don't want to create too many.

So, this evening I am loosing 20$.

Mostly I have very good hands like triple or top pair top kicker and I also raise appropriate, but many call and I get the bad luck and a board of 3 colours.

Due to my bluff paranoia I mostly call the All-In. How can I cure myself from this?

I actually marked him and was assuming, that he only bets big, if he got the nuts, but there endless players out there and I don't have notes on at least 95% of all those players. :/

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Posted: 03-Oct-2009 13:08 by jamesbeckton

bet bigger. 4bet preflop to 2.5 then shove flop,.

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Posted: 03-Oct-2009 23:56 by ZEUSUEZ

Fold is the easiest thing you can do.....


http://www.pkr.com/en/community/forums/badbeats/how-to-fold-kk-vs-aa-29592/

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Posted: 09-Oct-2009 16:46 by ezoteric

@Michima

Limping with KK utg is OK, but in the hope of getting raised then SHOVE

If not u have to fold when someone hevy bet the A, with that many callers someone have a A

D. Brunson said: I don't like AA or KK. With it u win little or loose big !

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Posted: 10-Oct-2009 01:37 by poseidon1963

Yep, only flat call UTG if you are prepared to shove all-in against any raise.

Mostly I have very good hands like triple or top pair top kicker and I also raise appropriate, but many call and I get the bad luck and a board of 3 colours. As mentioned by lots of posters aggression is crucial , but be careful not to overvalue your hand if you meet resistence as "Top pair top kicker" is not as strong as you seem to think and will rarely win big pots, unlike a set - (remember average winning hand in poker is two pair)

Good luck at the tables

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Posted: 13-Oct-2009 20:45 by MichiMa

Hm I might understand, but I need some concrete numbers.

What do you guys mean with overvalue exactly? Like more than potsize? Need numbers in form of big blinds or something.

Ah and thanks for the wise tips and sayings.
D. Brunson is sooo right.

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Posted: 14-Oct-2009 03:32 by callmebabe

I don't mind the limp pre flop at a ten seater game, but once its raised and back to you re-raise,bet pot, no need to trap at these stakes they will call, bet bigger to protect such a strong hand. At these limits no one cares about position or throwing in a few more pence into the pot, also they will play any hands that "look pretty" JQ,JT any two face cards with paint on them.
Now I know this sounds bad I would nearly shove all-in on flop, or a least bet pot as I said at these stakes any ten, maybe any pair will call.
You got unlucky on the river, the AT would have called anyway, but most of the time your good there.
When I started at these stakes the only button I used was pot bet with big made hands, it is surprising how many callers you will get even by doing this, but with made hands your on a winner in the long run.
gl

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Posted: 11-Nov-2009 01:22 by BlackTrojan

Apart from in this case betting bigger i think it would help your future games if you studied firstly position and starting hands and secondly pot odds the later is quite hard when learning in early stages of your game and i sometimes struggle in calculating this factor at speed ...if unsure when all ins are being rammed in your face either fold and fight later or watch the opponents regular size bets ( noting what type of hands their betting on ) youll know what to do eventually lol ( timing )... or even try playing in at different levels (lower blinds ) until you improve at least you dont loose so much whilst still learning )