Views Please on a mix of AIP and Non AIP tables

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 16:29 by Dunbar

It is not like PKR has to invent the wheel here Every other site has either 100% non-AIP tables or a mix of both.

I think the main reason why PKR doesnt offer them is because it isnt coded in the software yet and not as a marketingdecision. But when they launched the cards up tables it became clear that their is a possibility to launch tables whith different features/attributes. Coding non-aip as such a feature wouldnt be that hard imo.

All the discussion about the AIP isnt that much about launching non-AIP tables (which is a no-brainer if PKR fancies more high stakes action) but more to press PKR to take the matter more seriously. And focus their codemonkeys on coding non-AIP tables and more basic pokerfeatures rather then writing the next awful casinogame with a nice house edge.

So: no more casinogames until we have non-AIP tables!

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 17:01 by Rozzie

Hi Dunbar, I know how strongly you feel about this

As it happens, I know a fair bit about software and I'm sure the new features could be incorporated easily. I was trying to get into their heads (PKR's) a litle bit with my post and look at HOW such a feature would be implemented - HOW it would be marketed, how the community would react to it and so on.

I believe they're thinking about it for sure and I imagine that there must be some good reasons why this hasn't been done yet, and no I'm not being a sycophant. I was trying to bring to light the potential issues that I could think of and see if we can thrash them out in the open with the community to see if we can approach the idea as 'one'.

FYI, I hate DC abusers too - not because I have been a victim but because I abhor cheaters in general.

But I'm trying to keep a narrow focus with this thread. WHAT are the pros and cons of a mix of Non AIP and AIP tables, and if we were PKR how would we get around the cons?

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 17:47 by Dunbar

You are over-thinking it. When PKR launched the cards-up tables, splitting up the playerbase was a risk, but they decided to go for it. AIP/non-AIP will be peanuts compared to that.

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 18:49 by Rozzie

/orly

Ya think?

I think it's a lot more contoversial than that.

TBH I can't see how you can easily put a positive spin on it at all - whichever way you package it, it sounds negative as it deals with disconnection which is an unhappy state of affairs and is therefore not a good thing to promote on a poker site. It highlights a weakness in on-line poker regarding connections which is bad news for marketing folks and PRs. Cards-up tables is a far more netral subject as far as PKR looking 'good' is concerned and a positive spin can be put on it.

That''s why I made this thread - maybe some bright spark can think of a neutral way this can be lauched to the community with PKR.

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 19:07 by Dunbar

have you ever played on another pokersite? Every pokersite has non-AIP tables. It is just a basic feature. No need for promoting or anything, it is a basic thing. You make it sound like PKR needs a complete marketingteam and PR campaign launched to sell it.

The negative aspects are now, when a player feels he is cheated by someone using AIP and decides he never wants to play on an AIP table again..
...only to find out AIP-tables are all PKR has to offer.

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 19:35 by Rozzie

OK - here are a few computery facts.

Other sites have no need for discon protection because of their 2D software.

To put it in layman's terms - everytime you make a bet on PKR a huge amount of computer and network load is created. Every animation you make has to be sent accross the network and every animation, every gesture, every voice, every mood, every outfit, that everyone else has and makes has to be sent and received by everyone else - and executed on their computer. This makes for a huge load on both computer and network making disconnections due to computer or network lag much more likely than at other sites.

At other sites there is a tiny demand made of the network and PC. Just look at the relative space they take up on your hard disk for a comparison.

All this means that discon protection serves a genuine purpose (even if the majority of us don't like it). Discons ARE more likely on PKR given the software and power of most players PC's. That's just a fact. That's why I'm sure PKR introduced it, even though it has potential for abuse.

So it still being needed seems to be a given. That means the only option is a mix of tables until computer and newtork power cancel out the need for it - which is probably a long way off.

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 19:53 by Rozzie

You make it sound like PKR needs a complete marketingteam and PR campaign launched to sell it.

Dunbar, 30/10/2009

Well they will have to. That's what I'm saying and why I created this thread. IF you are to have a mix of AIP and non AIP tables, how do you explain the difference to the public in a way that sounds positive? And PKR will have to explain.

The best I can come up with is to call them "tables for those users that have invested in extra computing power and network speeds making their need for discon protection redundant".

But yes, they will have to launch it and they will need new players to understand the table differences, and it would need to be done in such a way that a hack couldn't get hold of the news and suggest that PKR is a bad site to play at unless you have a powerful lap-top.

They will need to think of all of this, so I thought why don't we think of this too - that way we might get the tables faster.

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 20:02 by Rozzie

Hmmmm... I had an idea - maybe instead of focussing on the non AIP tables in the message - they could focus on the AIP ones and lay the blame with the networks. Something like, "we will continue to offer tables where our discon protection facility will still operate for those users that have not got access to bandwidth prioritisation with their network provider - but we will now offer a selection of tables where that functionality is disabled for those that prefer it".

I should be in marketing.

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 20:19 by MeneGeneOkerland

There are plenty of sites that have a mix of both, so I don't see how it makes it "bad" to have both

Perhaps "we now offer non DC tables" will work........

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 20:33 by Rozzie

Really? A mix of both... well that's cool, the precedent is set already.

So who has a mix of both? It'd be cool to look at how they explain the differences to their users (if at all).

All PKR need do is say that they are following a trend which is even easier.

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 20:51 by fatshaft

iPoker has both, they have normal tables that have DP, they are just listed as 'table name', and the other tables are listed as 'table name (no DP)'

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 20:52 by MeneGeneOkerland

i-poker network has a mix

EDIT it looks about 50 50 when i scrolled down

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 21:03 by Rozzie

I just found this on Empire Poker's site - they have a mix too.

'No disconnect protection' tables

Disconnection protection will not be available on selected tables. These tables will have ‘No DP’ next to their names in the Lobby.

Instead of following the usual disconnect protection conventions, these tables will wait for the player to reconnect based on the investment in the pot. The players' time bank will not be used, but the system will wait for the player to reconnect, based on the following rules:

1.No time will be added if the Pot size is up to 5*X.

2. Twenty seconds will be added if the pot is more than 5*X, up to 20*X.

3. Thirty seconds will be added if the pot is more than 20*X, up to 40*X.

4. Forty-fives seconds be added if the pot is more than 40*X, up to 80*X.

5. Sixty seconds will be added if the pot is more than 80*X.

'X' is either the big blind amount in flop games or the lower limit of the stakes in 7 Card Stud games.

For tournaments, the big blind amounts or lower limits of the stakes will be based on the level of the tournament at the time of the disconnection.

When a player with no investment in the pot is disconnected, his hand will be folded when the regular time allotted expires. However, if a disconnected player can use a check option, the hand will be checked after the regular time allotted has expired.

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 21:50 by Dunbar

Everest has them, Pokerstars had them, but switched now completely to 100% non-AIP tables, and Full Tilt never had allin protection IIRC.

Usually it is just an icon, or added text to the tablename.

It is not unusual In fact, PKR offering 100% AIP tables is unusual in the business.

Other sites have no need for discon protection because of their 2D software.

This is not true. PKR is in no way different then any other 2D site in data traffic or whatsoever. The extra datatraffic for moods and animations is really not that much. The only way PKR is different is the 3D interface which can cause hardware problems for the users (local) machine.

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Posted: 30-Oct-2009 22:11 by Rozzie

Ok, well there is extra data traffic but I agree the biggest overhead is probably on the computer. But that doesn't really change the fact that it's more likely that there'll be a discon with PKR and thus more of a 'need' to have it (let's not debate that anymore). But it's good that I can see that other sites have a mix - I can see that there need be no reason that PKR can't just say they are following the precedent of other sites, end of. No need to worry about losing any business and they might actually gain some higher stakes business, who knows?

For me I've had all my questions answered, thanks

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Posted: 31-Oct-2009 01:14 by arichmond64

OK - here are a few computery facts.

Other sites have no need for discon protection because of their 2D software.

Rozzie 30/10/09

Absolutely not true, almost all sites, the big ones any way, have both DP and no DP tables, and its clearly stated in the lobbies. If your PC isnt good enough for PKR, dont play. Also, i terms of traffic, im sure the 100,000's of people playing poker stars etc. at any one time create the equivalent, if not more, than the traffic on PKR.

I think you have read way too far into this.
Its probably the simplest thing ever to deal with, have both, and we can choose, easy, its not going to affect anyones decision to play at PKR, do you really think that when people are looking for a poker site they see PKR and think "oh look ill sign up, because every table has a AIP on it" haha, i doubt it, infact i bet 80 % of the people on this site dont even have a clue what the hell it is.

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Posted: 31-Oct-2009 02:00 by Magpie79

Sorry to jump on the band wagon but the extra data traffic for emotes is minuscule. The animations are already on the computer. They just need a trigger.

Just so you know I'm not talking out of my arse I'm a professional programmer. The extra traffic for pkr with broadband is insignificant.

I will con-seed however low power pcs may disconnect due to processing lag. There is a low graffics option which I use when playing on the misses computer but it still lags like crazy from time to time.

However I am still all for AIP and No AIP tables running side by side. I'd rather run the risk of losing a pot due to connection failure than have one stolen from me by an abuser.

Given the choice I'd play the AIP ones when using my misses laptop and the no AIP ones the rest of the time.

All the best

Mags

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Posted: 31-Oct-2009 11:09 by Rozzie

@ arichmond - I actually want the tables same as you. You would have to read the entire thread to see why I put it here. It was my attempt to find out what possible reasons there were to not having a mix of tables, see if we can thrash those out a bit and maybe make them a reality sooner.

That was the intention. However it quickly became clear that there are other sites than have a mix of both and it is very much 'the done thing' these days to have a mix so there is really no obstacle to implementing them (imo).

And to Mags, yes the computer lag is the biggest overhead for sure. And I imagine that isn't going to get much better beacuse we like our new animations, rounded edges, moving hair and chip splashes cause it's what makes PKR the closest thing to being a live environment.

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Posted: 31-Oct-2009 11:19 by arichmond64

I read the whole thread. Yeh I did get what you were doing, just need PKR to read this, thing is, they know everything we know lol, so it doesnt make sense why they havent already changed it.

Like he said, its all about PCs, you need pretty much a new PC or laptop to run PKR 4 tables without any problems, or disconnects.
Its a simple solution, but they must have their reasons which they wont let on.

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Posted: 31-Oct-2009 11:58 by BenW77

I am pretty new to online poker but i was wondering what happens without dc connection? Are you just folded out of the hand if you disconnect?

It has only happened to me once but as it happened I was miles ahead at the time so i had taken the pot when i managed to get back on but obvioulsy lost out on increasing the pot and taking down more $. Would I have been folded out of this hand on a non protected table?

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Posted: 31-Oct-2009 13:41 by Rozzie

I am pretty new to online poker but i was wondering what happens without dc connection? Are you just folded out of the hand if you disconnect?

It has only happened to me once but as it happened I was miles ahead at the time so i had taken the pot when i managed to get back on but obvioulsy lost out on increasing the pot and taking down more $. Would I have been folded out of this hand on a non protected table?

BenW77, 31/10/2009

Well it depends in how it's implemented, (see the post in bold type above).

If you reconnected within the parameters listed above and that's the way PKR implement it then you will have stayed in the pot. If you still hadn't reconnected within those parameters then you would have lost what you had invested in the pot already.

PKR would need to work out how much time they were going to add in these situations.

And there will be people with laggy PC's who doubtless will prefer the AIP tables over the others. Presumably the higher stakes players have invested more in their computer set-up and will prefer the non AIP tables where the benefits of knowing you won't get 'cheated' outweigh the fact that you might get disconnected and (even with any new time allocated) lose your money.

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Posted: 31-Oct-2009 14:47 by Numero37

Don't think there should be any AIP at all. If you can play for cash then you should invest some of it in a stable broadband connection. Of course, everybody suffers from from genuine d/cs but that just a hazard and the same for everybody. I think I've had about may be 3-4 actual d/cs in the last 6 months and I can't remember any being significant in terms of me gaining or losing money.

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Posted: 31-Oct-2009 15:44 by Rozzie

Don't think there should be any AIP at all. If you can play for cash then you should invest some of it in a stable broadband connection. Of course, everybody suffers from from genuine d/cs but that just a hazard and the same for everybody. I think I've had about may be 3-4 actual d/cs in the last 6 months and I can't remember any being significant in terms of me gaining or losing money.

Numero37, 31/10/2009

The thing is some people like it AND use it honestly and appreciate those times when they lose the connection.

It's not just the broadband connection that is at fault - as has been pointed out earlier the computer is the most likely culprit of disconnections and not everyone can afford to upgrade. I have had numerous disconnections due to my underpowered laptop but I have broadband, for example.

So realistically a mix of tables is most likely to be the most satisfactory solution for most peeps IMHO.