Controversial

By Rizloid

51 posts 26 Oct 2009 00:50

Edited on 26 Oct 2009 00:51 by Rizloid

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Channel 4 on Monday is a programme about race and intelligence, would be interesting to hear what people think about it.

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Pkr1princess

2756 posts

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What time Riz?

Rizloid

373 posts

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What time Riz?

Pkr1princess, 26/10/2009

9pm, I think its going to cause quite a stir.

Pkr1princess

2756 posts

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Yeah deffo sounds it, will be watching it for sure, if I can threaten the remote of my lot, or point out who pays the tv licence? Hopefully they will all be bratty and I can just put them to bed early lol /boo to school holidays and bank holidays Wink

ray350

52 posts

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Yeah a whole week off , mine bored already lol.
Might watch it if I can drag myself off PKR.

VelvetSnow

817 posts

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Yep I'll be watching it, already got it programmed in my Sky planner lol, looking forward to it.

scottceltsrae

81 posts

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yeah can't wait, watch this then white men can't jump what a combo

Chivalrousgent

5679 posts
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Hmm, missed this ... will try to watch on 4od.

Area of particular interest of mine from my undergrad/postgrad days. Far too complex to offer handy forum-friendly soundbites ...

Modge

3707 posts

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Missed this too - hopefully catch it soon.

Does anyone know if there was race/genetics type discussion re athleticism or was it solely related to intelligence?

Just wondered as I remember an old and, I imagine, inaccurate program about black people being physically "better" (backed up by the proportion of top black athletes) whereas caucasian people where supposed to more intelligent.

Sounded interesting but I never had the time to look into it in any detail and wondered if there was actually any real evidence or if it was just misleading statistics

M.

gpj77

184 posts

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i missed the first twenty minutes but it was very interesting,
modge from what i saw it was just related to intelligence

Rizloid

373 posts

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The programme was very good and very honest, it was presented by a mixed race journalist...cant remember his name...anyway there is definitely an IQ gap between the races, Eastern Asian people scored the highest with white and black people following behind.

At the start I thought there was a danger that it was going to be a programme about blacks vs whites and all sorts of things about oppression etc thrown in which it never did, there were some hints at inequality but it didnt focus on that. It looked at some of the controversial characters regarding the subject and the studies that were done by some leading academics who said that intelligence was race based. It looked at non-biased IQ studies and the test results showed a consistent difference between the races.

It also looked at other evidence that didnt support the idea that intelligence is race based. There were some studies done that looked at african american people who had a lot of european genes in them, the theory was that those people would score higher against other african americans if indeed genetics were the answer, the results showed no difference at all.

The programme set out to ask why this was the case rather than denying the evidence and this is how it generally panned out...

Some academics, mainly up to the 60's and 70's used the evidence that intelligence was genetic and there is nothing that can be done about it. More lately however studies have shown that culture and parenting has a massive part to play in how intelligent we become, how successful we are and how high we score on IQ tests.

One of the focus points were east asian people and eastern culture. They used an example at a university in the US where the proportion of asian students far exceeded the proportion to population and asked why this was. Initially one might think that asian people are just naturally more intelligent but it has more to do with culture than brain power. At the university in question the asian students had a reputation for working very hard and would spend most of their free time in self made study groups, as one academic put it 'they work hard to capitalize on their talents'. It turns out that this work ethic and thirst for knowledge is deeply influenced by Confucius which is heavily rooted in east asian culture. For east asian people education is aspirational, they aspire to attending university and celebrate the acquisition of knowledge, this cultural influence means that they excel at being brainy because their brains have been exercised from a very early age.

In contrast to this the culture amongst black people was remarkably different, they interviewed a black teacher in London and asked him his views, he said that a lot of black kids have this perception that reading a book is to be like a white person, or to aspire to higher education is to be like a white. This culture amongst black people is without doubt one of the biggest reasons for the inequality that exists in our society today.

Of course thats not to say all black people are like that, but it is there and its a major block to achievement. If anyone reading this has seen Chris Rock's stand up shows 'Bring the Pain' and 'Bigger and Blacker' you will know exactly what is being said here. Those stand up shows were not only fantastic for Chris's performance but for the things he was saying, he openly attacked his fellow african americans for the kind of 'dumb ass' culture that so many of them seem to celebrate in. If you havent seen those shows I highly recommend them, one of the best and most cutting stand ups I have ever seen, the energy that comes off the guy is amazing.


The programme had other points but those were the main themes, there was evidence that the IQ gap was decreasing as well, they ended the programme by showing a clip from a speech by Barack Obama who basically stated that their needs to be a change of thinking amongst african americans...that they should start to aspire to education rather than aspiring to be a rapper or basket ball player.

So that was the essence of the programme and it was good to watch although it didnt actually give me that many surprises, if anyone has ever observed cultures they can see the massive effect it has on people, thats why you dont see jewish football players lol

To Modge...yeah that programme you saw would have been as biased as hell because it didnt take into account the factors that make people do certain things. The reason there are so many black athletes is because thats generally their aspirational goals, if you were jewish for example you would have it banged into your head at an early age that you have to be a doctor or something, these influences are absolutely fundamental to the paths that people take in life.

To Chiv....now that Ive laid the foundations feel free to add Happy

Modge

3707 posts

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To Modge...yeah that programme you saw would have been as biased as hell because it didnt take into account the factors that make people do certain things. The reason there are so many black athletes is because thats generally their aspirational goals, if you were jewish for example you would have it banged into your head at an early age that you have to be a doctor or something, these influences are absolutely fundamental to the paths that people take in life.

Rizloid, 27/10/2009

To be honest, I can't really remember it that well and I don't think I saw the whole thing but, from what I remember, it didn't really attempt to explain any differences - just point them out.

For example, it had stats like no white person has ever run the 100m in less than 10 seconds, despite more money being spent on young white athlete's training than young black runners.

It didn't attempt to say one race was any "better" than the other, just pointing out statisical differences. I think it's main point was "different but equal" but I guess this is all off topic as it's not relevant to this program!

/sorry for derailing.

M.

Rizloid

373 posts

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Different but equal, ouch!

Im sure there are stats that say no black person has ever shotputted beyond a certain distance as well, if the theory stands that black people are more athletic then they would dominate every field which they dont, you only have to watch an athletics event to see this. Icelandic type countries are famous for churning out Javelin throwers for example, they aspire to excel in those sports, thats cultural. Jamaica churns out amazing runners for such a small country and there is very little money there. Kenya churns out long distance runners, its cultural aspiration in the end.

If you take the South African rugby team as another example it is mainly full of white people, black South Africans have no problem with this whatsover, they just consider that its a game that white people like to play. If you look at their football team you would have seen only one white person in the last Confederations cup, white people have no problem with this fact either. Newspapers like to make an issue about the lack of black people in the SA rugby team but they are just morons who like to sh*t stir. Happy

Modge

3707 posts

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The different but equal point wasn't meant to be a sore one, lol Wink

Just that, even if differences in IQ / genetics were proven, that no one race is any "better" than another. I guess they're were trying to prevent some groups with other agendas hijacking their findings for propoganda purposes.

Oh, and +1 to newspapers being morons!

M.

Rizloid

373 posts

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Oh dont get me wrong, it wasnt sore to me but the entire gist the programme you mentioned seemed to suggest that we must accept that maybe one race is less intelligent than another, or less athletic entirely based on statistics.

If you get a chance to watch the programme that this topic is about you will see how it adresses the statistical evidence and delves deeper into why these statistics are as they are.

Theres a very telling part in it which shows that the IQ gap is actually decreasing and explains why, I would imagine that if IQ was race based then the gap would remain static which it isnt.

Rozzie

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I believe it's a fact that black african races have a heavier/denser skeleton to white people and are more muscular naturally. I believe this accounts for them excelling at sports where a short burst of power and energy is what is needed (100/200m) and doing less well at long distance. Also swimming - one black athlete who does excell at swimming was on a programme where he demonstrated that he actually sank not floated in pool water and he felt he was handicapped by that.

Rizloid

373 posts

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Thats so not true Rozzie, Kenyans and Ethiopians have produced the greatest long distance runners the world has ever seen. These guys are much in the same boat as Jamacian athletes regarding the amount of cash they have access to...so why dont they produce 100m sprinters as well? Cultural aspiration is what is at work here. Even the Chinese who were long considered not to be the best athletes are starting to churn out very good athletes, the world champion hurdles guy is Chinese for example, in fact China took most of the gold at the last Olympics. Russia were famous for their gymastics, not so much nowadays since communism has ended though.

Im not sure about the bone density thing though, maybe someone can enlighten us on that. Ive heard black comedians make jokes about the fact that they cant swim....but then that would only serve to deepen the social stereotype amongst themselves that its not even worth trying to excel at.

I will have to hark back to South Africa again here lol

When appartheid ended black people readilly and happily started flocking to the beaches and public swimming baths.....I bet my last penny that stereotypes about not being able to swim dont even exist there.

Modge

3707 posts

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I don't know if what Rozzie's saying is accurate or not, but I don't think she's saying black people can't swim, lol

It's that, at the Olympic level, even the smallest advantage/disadvantage is magnified. For example, a white guy may run 100m in 10.5 seconds, only 1 second less than the world record which, in the grand scheme of things, is nothing but in Olympic terms 1 second is huge.

So, of course black people can swim, but there may (or may not - I dunno) be a slight disadvantage if what Rozzie's saying is accurate.


M.

Rozzie

1444 posts

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Well I do recall that black swimmer saying that... can't remember his name, but he demonstrated it in front of the cameras.

However that's true what you say Riz about the Kenyans and Ethiopians. /think

I shall try and find some references about the skeleton thing. Happy

discomonkey

3103 posts
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there are a couple of factors around why black people are less capable of swimming as well as whites as a general race,

there is the marginally increased bone density which obvioulsy makes it harder to float when in the water, thus emaning the body is working to stay afloat AND swim fast which makes things far harder than for non blacks.

also im to understand the muscles are denser and havea different composition with different races, so thus making it possible for whites to be generally more adept at swimming and blacks more adept at runing etc

this is obv only a brief oversight of it as i need to eat, but ill prob pop back later to add more.

Modge

3707 posts

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If it's so well understood that there are significant physical difference between the races, why is it so controversial that there may be differences in intelligence which, after all, is such a vague concept anyway?


/think

M.

Rizloid

373 posts

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A good point Modge, after all nobody cares if chinese people are smarter than white people, we just accept the fact and get on with it. However what the programme was pointing out was that the difference in IQ scores were down to culture, thats what it was attempting to explain and the idea that Ive been trying to get across in my posts.

Lets put it another way, take a sink estate that is solely full of white people, bad area, crime, all that sort of thing.

Compare those peoples IQ results to those of well to do middle class people and there will be a difference, why? Both are the same race after all, the results should be equal right?

The reasons why they arent are 2 fold, social deprivation and culture. A culture of education will produce brighter kids, its that simple, if you are brought up in a culture that thinks learning is a taboo then you are probably going to end up pretty thick...you would certainly appear so anyway. If your parents never gave you puzzle games as a youngster then you cant exercise that part of your brain, so when it comes to an IQ test you will probably fail miserably at the puzzles, the journalist in the programme attempted various IQ challenges and struggled with the puzzles and stated 'I never did puzzle games as a kid'. The journalist was clearly a very intelligent guy but his IQ results are lower than they otherwise would be had he had educational toys as a youngster. Saying that...if he went away and started practising puzzle games he would find them easier after a while and his score would increase.

If anyone has played Dr Kawashima's Brain Training on the DS then you will know what I am talking about. The first time anyone plays that game it says their brain age is about 500 years old lol. After a few days of playing and getting used to the games and flexing the grey matter your brain age drops dramatically. I went from 56 years old at first try to 23 in a week lol (Im 35)

The programme was critical of the value of IQ tests in measuring peoples intelligence, is it really fair to say a sub-saharan african is less intelligent because of the IQ test? Its not fair because our environment is completely different to theirs, we are surrounded by technology like computers that require logical thinking, we drive which requires our spacial thinking to be exercised to its fullest etc. If you live in tiny village with very basic living standards, no schools or hospitals and weird religious voodoo beliefs then of course they would not score well on IQ tests. It doesnt mean their brains are any less capable however and to point at race as a reason for lower scores is misleading and incorrect.

Cultural aspiration and access to education plays a massive part in IQ scores, IQ tests are slightly discredited though, there is so much they dont measure but its generally the standard that a lot of people go by. We all know that Mr Chivalrousgent is a brain box and has a high IQ but is he more intelligent than me? I dont know really, I hated school and dont have an education, I havent flexed my brain muscles nearly as much as he has, Ive no doubt that from an early age Mr Chivs entire life has revolved around learning and Im sure his parents gave him a billion puzzle games to play with as a youngster....it would be expected that his IQ is higher than mine. Intellectually I dont know if he is my superior but the fact that he has a lot of knowledge makes it hard for me to argue on his level, but does this mean I have less intelligence and intellect....or just less knowledge?

The best thing would be for people to get hold of the programme and try and understand the points Im making here, or read my posts again Wink

Rizloid

373 posts

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I have to link this, its Chris Rock who I referred to earlier... its the famous 'I love black people but I hate Niggaz' part of his show. Its a social observation made about the culture of black people in America which Chris so vehemently attacks, its part of a landmark performance that should not be forgotten and supports the idea that cultural influence and IQ/intelligence are related.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui6-Wc0PDc4



Chivalrousgent

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"Just that, even if differences in IQ / genetics were proven, that no one race is any "better" than another" That's pretty much the most significant thing to bear in mind when discussing this subject. There are many who argue that there can be no difference between races, and implicitly state that this is because being less "intelligent" means that one has lower worth, and given that we live in such an egalitarian age, that wouldn't be acceptable. This is committing the "moralistic fallacy", however - what OUGHT to be is not always what IS. This sort of view dooms us to racist conclusions. If equality of people is predicated upon BIOLOGICAL equality, all it takes is for empirical evidence to show that there are biological differences (even small ones) and that pulls the rug out from racial equality. Instead, we should seek to base racial equality on more fundamental underlying rights to equality - that we grant them because they are self-evidently necessary and worthy, rather than because of some empirical fact.

Biologically-speaking, we are all fundamentally similar. There is greater variation within races than between races. That is not to say, however, despite the earnest desire of leftist scientists that there can be no slight difference on average between racial groups. If nothing else, there's clearly a difference in melanin content in the skin - that's what makes people darker in the first place. Is this particularly meaningful? Meh … not particularly, it's a wrinkle on the surface of human similarity. In every meaningful sense we are all much of a muchness.

Some argue that “race” is an invalid biological construct. I disagree, somewhat. Granted, skin colour per se is indicative of nothing. However, it is a proxy indicator for your genetic provenance – where your genes came from. In an increasingly globalised world where gene-flow is increasing massively between populations, this will become more and more irrelevant as the fact that humans were diverging genetically on a limited scale (the time-frames are pretty short in the grand scheme of things, hence why the differences between races are relatively shallow) in isolated groups for less than 100'000 years is negated by the fact that all the gene-pools which were once geographically isolated are now effectively the same pool. The chance of someone in Japan having kids with someone from Madagascar, previously, would've been almost unthinkable on a practical level. Nowadays the world is a lot “smaller” thanks to the information revolution and our massively improved travel infrastructure.

So, we had distinct groups largely geographically separated for tens of thousands of years – of course we expect to see some limited localised adaptation. Skin colour darkening over generations due to the level of sun exposure (remember that it's not that the sun exposure accumulates and you pass on your darkened skin to your kids, it's that over time those with naturally darker skin tend to be better adapted to their sunny environment, thus meaning they have a greater level of reproductive success so there's more of them about, and so on).

Might intelligence be in a similar league? Perhaps. Intelligence is certainly a function of the brain, but quite where it springs from is hard to pin down precisely. In principle though, given that the brain is an organ and subject to biological evolution, its emergent properties of intelligence, by extension, may well be subject to selective pressures. One of my old professors proffered a potential explanation for IQ differences across the races, though it is very much speculative and doesn't have a great deal of support. He posited that, perhaps, those who migrated out of Africa would've benefited from greater ability to solve novel problems (how to resolve the problem of cold, survive in new and strange environments etc.) and that this problem-solving is tied to intelligence – those who were “smarter” had greater reproductive success, ergo those who left Africa experienced an increase in “intelligence” in the population over time and on average.

The evidence for this is pretty tenuous, and I'm very much on the fence on this one, but it's a good example of the kind of explanations which may exist for an IQ gap if there is one.

Is there an intelligence gap? Well, it depends what we mean by “intelligence”. IQ tests have always been a somewhat controversial issue. It attempts to measure an “underlying intelligence factor”. There was a guy called Spearman who effectively found, after statistically analysing various competence test results, that those who did well in certain tests also did better in other ones. Without getting into all the statistics – he unearthed the fact that there was clearly some factor which underpinned all these tests results. He called this “general intelligence”, or what is commonly referred to now simply as g. IQ tests attempt to measure this.

Do they succeed? That's a topic which is so technical and complex that a forum post isn't going to do it justice …

Even assuming that IQ tests can properly identify this underlying g are they applicable across all situations? Are tests designed in Western Europe equally accurate and applicable in sub-Saharan Africa, China or Morocco? Are the tests truly objective or are they culturally-loaded/biased?

Some research suggested that success in such tests is dependent upon the questions being contextually relevant – by framing fundamentally the same question in different ways the researcher elicited totally different levels of response. Couching the question in a familiar context (haggling in a bazaar, for example) led to a far greater level of correct responses than the same question framed in a particularly abstract way.

In terms of IQ test results, there IS a marked difference between races, even when controlling for potential confounding factors like wealth, education etc. Whether this is a genuine correlation though, or whether there is some factor, like the aspirational ones Riz was talking about, which can explain it is hard to pin down at the moment.

The research being done is generally very interesting, but it's still a far from conclusively resolved field. I'm going to remain firmly sat on the fence, saying only that it there is certainly sufficient statistical evidence to suggest that there may be some average differences between race s in terms of “intelligence”, but that (1) this is largely irrelevant (except for better informing policy-making) (2) even if there is a difference, it will disappear over time as gene-flow increases and the world becomes more genetically homogenised (yay!) Happy

XCHIMIN

331 posts

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After 1 mio year all my children look like china-pack man singing Michael Jackson song, swim like Torpedo and run like Jamaica.

M.Jackson 23.Apr.2009SadMichael Jackson is dumb after white.)

goldpanda

723 posts

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wow this is a great thread and a very interesting read.. its a shame i missed the program on TV..

can someone please tell me if there is a link so i can watch this...?

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