Discomonkey's MTT advice thread

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 20-Aug-2009 11:37 by james666

I am playing in the main event
of
the
apt Macau and am wondering what to do... K have
aa and 3 people have allined in front of me what do I do? I think the other guys at the table
are getting annoyed with me waking for your reply. I think they wil call the clock on me soon for taking to long and emailing whilst on my iPhone lol

sounds like a good thread. Utilize discos knowledge guys, it will be invaluable.

Peace out and wish me luck

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 20-Aug-2009 12:56 by BokitoNL

If you got this feeling you will loose with AA James, you have to fold. Ask whiskey

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 20-Aug-2009 17:25 by ForFoxSake

My main area of concern is chip accumulation when having no playable hands.

A classic example for me is (as a low level player) I play standard TAG in the 1st hour of a MTT and have few hands, maybe picked up a few position pots here and there but by the first break I am only just above the starting stack and have around 10-12BB. This means very little limping and almost anytime I raise I will shove right? I am finding that if I am card dead for a couple of more levels I am shoving with anything in reasonable position at players I think are most likely to surrender their blinds just to try and keep a stack until I hit a hand....however it always seem I run into a hand or a loose player (who is before the blinds) makes a 6BB call with QJo or something and I look foolish shoving with 68o etc. Unfortunately with lower games the tables break so often its hard to get any respect as a tight player.

Is this the best idea in the long run, should I be getting more aggressive earlier before my stack gets low, or do you have any other advice for lower level games where you do not have playable hands?

Thanks for doing this Q&A I am sure it will benefit a lot of players.

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 20-Aug-2009 17:45 by antsmith88

i'm with fox on this, happens to me quite regularly

any advice would be greatly appreciated

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 21-Aug-2009 14:02 by BokitoNL

When the structure of a tournament is "poor" its better to play more hands in the beginning , where youre +-100BB deep, and got a fair advantage on the rest of the players.

Anyone can play poker when its only 10BB deep, only a few players can play real poker when its 100BB deep.

I think its also important to review your shove hands with SNG Wizards, this programn will show you if youre shove was +ev in the long run. Review a few times and you know it by heart

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 21-Aug-2009 16:54 by discomonkey

if the structure is fast enough to drop u down to 10-12bb in the first hour or so then you need to be able to make moves with marginal hands 3bet vs raisers fairly light and be raising other players cbets without hands.

accumulating chips through picking spots where players show weakness or in spots where it is likely that they are weak ie them cbetting on low flop or paired boards.

if u start to notice your stack dwindling, it is time to take action around the 15-20 bb mark as you are likely to be called quite light if u only have 6bb(especially if u have been shoving a lot in position) vs a player with plenty of chips or who is watching the game........

u have answered your own question in a way...
"should i be getting more aggressive earlier"

yes

also when shoving with a short stack it can be a fault of some players to forget their image at the table..... you may have been tight in first few levels but then if u either move tables or have been raising a lot in position when down on chips your image is no longer that of a tight player, especially with those who have played you before and seen u employ the tactic of opening/shoving wide in late position

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 21-Aug-2009 17:49 by ForFoxSake

Thanks for that guys I do some of that on occasion but always get worried that raising a cbet with air leaves me in trouble if I get reraised and hence dont do it enough.....I guess being more aggressive is the way to go but maybe varying out the aggression enough so it doesnt get noticed.

Will see how it goes

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 21-Aug-2009 23:29 by IHAVEBIGBALLS

is there any setup of a mtt where you would only be waiting for a double up hand instead of playing lots of hands and trying your luck, like in super long mtts where every call you make its not infact 20 chips your calling with its 40 or 60 coz thats 20 chips down on your double up tripple up or better?

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 22-Aug-2009 00:20 by discomonkey

yes any time you are below 15bb i wouldnt be wasting my time calling raises unless you plan on gettingt it all in on the flop, seeing flops with suited connectors or small pairs is something i would advocate doing more often wehen you have 40-50bb and even then i think flat calling isnt a good potion every time, sometimes i would reccomend raising to mix things up a bit and out the pressure on your opponent..

although seeing flops when well stacked enough is something i would do against a very aggressive player, as your implied odds are greater for extracting chips/getting chips into the pot if u hit your flop or pick up a big draw

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 22-Aug-2009 01:14 by poseidon1963

My main problem is betsizing when I need to re-raise. I've tended to re-raise 3x the initial raise or a pot size raise, but this rarely seems to deter mutliple players from calling or shoving all-in. I don't like shoving all-in in these situations too often as I take the view that the more all-in showdowns you get into during a tourney the greater opportunity there is for you to be knocked out and I also tend to get called by trash hands and then outdrawn. I believe that I have a fairly tight table image .

So my question is how much should you generally look to re-raise by so that you avoid an all-in showdown? Also, obviously stack size plays a part in this decision so how much of your stack needs to be committed before you would consider an all-in as the only option?

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 22-Aug-2009 02:01 by discomonkey

1stly you need to get out of the mentality that you get outdrawn when you get it all in, if u get it in ahead enough over the long term then you will have your hands hold up and accumulate chips.

my reraise tends to be 2.5x the initial raise, an example of this would be at 50/100 the raiser makes it 300 to play, i would reraise to between 700 and 850 as keep the pot small enough to manage (say you both have stacks of 5-6000) and it allows you to take control of the pot, and you havent invested that much of your stack comparative to what many players would do in this situation.
generally speaking i would be prepared to commit everything once i have put in 1/3rd of my chips in a non deep stacked tournament( on a side note if u are very deep ie 60bb or more, you could put a great deal of your chips in and be able to fold if u think you are dead and still have a playable stack.

although it seems to me that your attitude towards the game is a somewhat negative one,
ie "i always seem to get outdrawn by trash"
trying to avoid getting your chips in even if u have the best of it.

my suggestion to you would be to take a more positive attitude towards the game, dont think that you will lose or be outdrawn try to be more realistically optimistic if u understand what i mean, a positive attitude goes a long way in this game.

gl

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 22-Aug-2009 02:27 by poseidon1963

Disco thanks for the feedback which was very helpful. I think you might have misunderstood my comments about being outdrawn when ahead (or I explained it poorly.) Ofc over the long run it will revert back to the mean and if I'm ahead I should make profitable decisions, but the reason I mentioned it was because my recent experiences have made me think that just being ahead is not always enough to justify putting your tournament life on the line. For example, after the flop I may have top pair top kicker, but if I always get into an all-in showdown each time I am in this position in a single tournament I will eventually bust out. So i'm trying to look at this as a potential leak in my game and better understand when it makes sense to risk all my chips and when its better to either check, call or even fold. Also, IMO there is a fine line between being aggressive and being wreckless. You have worked out where this line is drawn because of the progressive improvement in your game and the huge success you have had in the past 12 months. I haven't, but am always trying to learn. I view these as taking a positive approach to improving my game, unless I'm missing something?

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 22-Aug-2009 02:45 by discomonkey

yeah i did misinterpret what you meant with regard to that.

yes having as few showdowns as possible is more optimal than going to a lot of showdowns, but in tournaments going to showdowns, be it all in pre flop or on later streets is just going to happen, you have to make sure you are on the right side of it as often as possible.

the example you use with top pair here, it is not the worst idea to check with top pair in or out of position to either control the pot or allow the opponent chance to believe he is ahead, rather than bettting and losing a lot of value from hands that you are ahead of.
however if u are checking dangerous flops with made hands then you are asking for trouble in the end, as a good player will pounce on any danger cards to hit and possibly make you fold the best hand.
ie you have a8s on 578 you woudlnt check that flop in position as there are so many cards that make it difficult for you to a) know you are ahead b) get value out of worse hands than yours as the opponent is as scared of the board as you are, and if he has a weaker hand than yours he will definitely be less likely to pay yon increasingly dangerous u off on a board.

i underfstand your point about being ahead not necessarily being enough to justify going all in, there are often situations you can lay down a big hand because there is a good chance you are racing or put your opponent on a draw and you still have play left if u fold and are accumulating chips in other ways to make it profitable to fold in the long term. generally spoeaking though on pkr in tournaments that are generally of a faster nature top pair is normally something to shout about, and thus there arent that many times when u have 10-20bb that u will be folding top pair afetr you ahve committed a large portion of your stack.

something that i am doing more of myself is flat calling a raise when i pout somebody on a flush draw let them see the cheap turn then jam alll in, very few people lilke ton chase flush draws with one card to come wheras many will chase with 2 cards to come, it also gives you a bigger pot to take down without a showdown and keeps the pot small enought o get away from if they do hit on the turn.

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 22-Aug-2009 04:43 by andymarius

i have problems playing small poket pairs when im short stack and when im in early position.im afraid of rasing cuz we all know some players will call any 2 cards and im afraid one of them will hit a over card. same thing with A ( 2 to 9) in early position when the blinds are high.are these hands even worth paying for? or they go straight in the muck?

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 22-Aug-2009 15:47 by IHAVEBIGBALLS

sorry disco i ment setup at the start, coz i found in long runer freerolls it paid to only get involved like a trapdoor spider and wait for double up or better and then use your chip lead to see suited connectors and bet small mid pairs and aces, because then your low bets are stronger for the fear of u can take them out or try to and still be there with as many chips as them, or the other answer wich i thought youd give would be if say in a tourn like the masters or the big shot where its long levels and short player numbers but the players in that game you should respect because of the buyin, sorta anywayz lol wink
ps i too have problems with mid pairs but only wen in a two way pot wheer im in small blind vs big blind. i often push and see im against qq or aa, what should i do if im in these situations

10 seater mtt players left in 120 bubbles at 80 level goes up evry 12 mins blinds at 600 and 1200 i have 10k in chips the bb has 6k in chips the player has been a tag up to 10 mins b4 wen he became a calling station coz he lost 20% of stack in a race with a lowstack?

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 23-Aug-2009 00:04 by discomonkey

i have problems playing small poket pairs when im short stack and when im in early position.im afraid of rasing cuz we all know some players will call any 2 cards and im afraid one of them will hit a over card. same thing with A ( 2 to 9) in early position when the blinds are high.are these hands even worth paying for? or they go straight in the muck?

andymarius, 22/08/2009

if i were you i would google phil gordons pair theory/ phil gorods ace rag theory..... hedveeloped a theory for when you should be pushing with a rag and pairs depending on your position at the table and a mathematical solution to how likely you are to be dominated.

ill try and find pexactly what it was, tho if james is about he may know what it was as well

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 23-Aug-2009 00:38 by discomonkey

@IHBB, with regard to your "wait for a spot and double" strategy.......

i would say that is a higher risk scenario as you are putting all of your chips on the line in one hand and trying to win one big pot, which may not happen as you want. innstead of winning a lot of small pots and accumulating your stack through small bets and playing smaller pots in position.

2. pairs in the blinds, even the smaller pairs i would be tempted to raise with rather than shove with because you are only getting called in -ev situations, ie against over pair or overcards, meaning you are never that far ahead if at all, wheras if u raise with the intention of calling any shove (assuming you or the opponent are not massively stacked) it will get reraise shoves from worse hands than those that will call the shove thus you have a better long term equity when you are raising with these "marginal hands" (i believe this also works for hands such as kj/kq/and a lot of the ace rags.

hope this helps, gl

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 23-Aug-2009 01:36 by IHAVEBIGBALLS

i think sometimes its better to run through a jungle than walk less likely to be bitten by sumthin small carryin death, leave others to fight it out and get varried stack sizes gives u instant power over the ones that lose, and id only be pushing or 2 bettin with top hands, a good point to this well 2 good point to this the field thins and if it pays off then you only have the players to worry about and not being eatin by the blind, this works well for the 1st 70 to 90 % of the game, there isnt enough time in most tourns to see to many hands without needin to count how many blinds u got left . anyway so ye cutting things downs the answer, okee g/night

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 23-Aug-2009 17:20 by golfpro699

some really good advice from disco, definitely look at shoving charts because they're very important.

A lot of questions seem to be about what to do with specific hand strengths, like TP, or a small pp preflop etc. The thing about tournaments is that you should be thinking about stack sizes first, before your cards. In some situations your stack size mean a move is much more likely to work, whilst others your range should be much tighter.

for example 9 handed mtt, raise from a big stack in the CO at 500/1k/100 and you are in the bb with 22. From 15-30bbs you might wanna consider just shipping it in, but with say 10bbs it's probably a fold because you have too little FE and although you have a pair, it's the nut low low (note once u get to 6-7bbs it might be an auto stackoff, although u need a quick check of the tournament lobby to see where you are in relation to bubbles etc. this is a good example tho of how very specific differences in stack size could completely sway decisions)

so here, same spot twice witht he only difference being stack sizes. shoving around 30bbs however carries a lot of risk, and is on the upper side of what I like to jam over opens. It would definitely be reckless/terrible if I'm shoving 40bbs, since I would definitely want to 3-bet a polarized range i.e. 99+/AQ+ and then stuff I wont call shoves with, soemthing like Q7s, random Ax, JT etc. This way I 3-bet and give the option to my opponent to 4-bet shove/fold or if he really wants to, call although against people that call often Id be less inclined to 3-bet air because they can be valuetowned too easily anyway.

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 23-Aug-2009 22:41 by satfat

ok i had this problem for years, endless adjustments and still happens.

get to final top 4 in chips. now we all know the first half of most finals(at least till u lose 2/3/4) is usually tighter than a gnats chaff(50>buy in) so i tend to favour trying to push my luck a bit, steal from the ladder jumpers, aggro in pos, limp UTG reshove random cards if deep enough), etc. but it usually goes tits up. i have tried oppoite and nit up but then find myself so short 3/4/5 handed tht im fooked. i tried normal accumulation gear for last 5% of field but thts useless cos no1s willing to see flops and be outplayed(typ get 3 bet/shoved on too much to make blind stealing profitable). it cud just be ive bin ul on finals but over hundreds of them of them its not likely. whaddya think?

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 23-Aug-2009 23:05 by discomonkey

well firstly when u get to the final table you have played with at least half the field throughout the tournament, so thus you have a reasonable idea of how they play, also on most final tables i will sharkscope players ( not for their profit, but for their average stake, as it tells you a lot about how much the money means to them, ie will a $20 mtt player be bothered about a 10k first prize, yes obv....... but a big time cash player may not have the wins on record but his average stake will be larger) then by these two things you can pick up a lot of info on who is likely to fight back with air and who wont, and pick on the ones who wont.

the more people go out also the mroe you should raise and reraise as the money jumps increase, try avoiding marginal hands in marginal spots. depending on the stack sizes i wouldnt be too aggro early on unless the hands present themselves, it will give u a chance to assess the dynamics of the table as you have all changed from 5 to 10 handed.

i would really put the emphasis on attacking the smaller stacks but not the smallest stack if he is on life suppport, because they will see an opportunity to ladder up when he goes out and will refuse to fight back without a big hand, and also 3 betting the others that have been assessed as weak, or laddering/scared, hope for some hidden luck when 3 betting the weak that they dont have monsters (hopefully they will be easy to read with bet sizes) and that u dont get brutalized by variance and all should be good.

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 23-Aug-2009 23:28 by satfat

thx for quick reply disco. will def try tht SC tip (atm all i do is OPR tilt/stars players to prove how crap they are! /upps. my bad) but is not too practicle for me. usually play 10+ tables.


ok. heres a new hole im trying to plug. ive always bin fairly uncomfortable at 10bbs and just revert to the book style of push/fold for blinds (HV dep on pos and prev action ofc) or DT. this is fine for other sites but not for PKR i am begining to think. this is due to the fact tht u spend the whole last 20% of mtts here around the 10bb mark (unless ur runaway cl but considering ur facing all 10bbs not like u can really domin8). im developing a strategy for being this low for so long but obv im not there yet. whats ur short stack strategy for here?

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 24-Aug-2009 00:32 by discomonkey

i wrote something on short stacked lay in one of my old blogs, i have copied and pasted it in.

"in my personal opinion when i have 20bb or less i do not feel comfortable in the game, there is very little room for manouvere and the game becomes far too simple and can be luck based especially when you get exceptionally short.

for me with 5bb or less if i get the chance to open a pot , i will go all in with any 2 cards because im not waiting for a point where i am so short a double up will only get me to being still critically short, so ill get my chips in asap and let monkey power do the rest

if have between 6 and 9bb then im in a situation where if i have absolute trash then i can wait if i am in early position for a slightly better hand, although if i am in late position then i will still shove with any 2, as the blinds and antes will make up a large part of my stack.

between 10-15 bb i will still be aggressive in very late position shoving with hands that i would normally consider marginal, but the thing is with the stack i have at this stage raising equates upto 25% of my stack and with a standard mtt situation i will raise and call off to a shove, if i have any pair over 55/ax/kq/kj as the only reason i am raising and not shoving is to get the all in shove from weaker hands that would not call if i just shoved, i figure the really strong hands are calling anyway so it doesnt matter what i do, all i can do is try to get value from the hands that i am beating or even money against."

i find most mtts on pkr are between 12 and 20bb average so this strategy i have seems to work pretty well

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 25-Aug-2009 07:32 by satfat

^^^ this is pretty much what i have bin doing

surely theres got to be a better way to utilise the ernormous edge tht anyone with basic konwledge has in most MTTs here? is it possible to play nuance, post flop poker on <20BBs. horrible underbetting seems to have the same affect as normal betting here. surely tht wud mean ur stack is more flexible thn u wud think? could a new model of ICM work here? food for.......

Reply | Report abuse

Posted: 25-Aug-2009 15:56 by discomonkey

well, stop and goes have a good effect on players raising with 15x, cos if u shove they will call off light but if u stop and go and they have missed they ahev to fold.

i have to say it is very difficult to play post flop with any degree of skill with less than 20bb, as any "move" will commit you and then you are stuck if it goes wrong, i tend to rely on pre flop pressure to accumlate chips and if i have the chip stack i will put the pressure on the tables short stacks as often as possible, ie if u have 40bb and the 2 stacks to your left have 12bb or less i just open ship the button any 2, with the laddering effect from both of them its very liekly you will get a fold, and you would be very suprised how often players will fold a8 in that spot when its and obv snap call.